These principles have guided me in ministry at Spirit of Christ Church!

When I'm asked what guiding prinicples have helped me in my ministry,these are just my thoughts: I have been influenced by ministers of many denominations who are concerned about evangelism Jesus said go and make disciples and he invited people to come and see. Jesus said go and make disciples and he invited people to come and see or stand on the corners to reach people. Meeting for coffee or a drink is a good way to build new relationships. Use third spaces for ministry (keith anderson) Be confident in your faith! Know the real history and orgin of the movement Be creative in buildng your ministry Care less whether people think you are you are legitimate, do your ministry! Be visible in your community. Know your mission. Pray often, many times a day. Be present to people not just on Sundays in church. Know that not everyone will understand you or agree with you, but follow your calling. Keep the baby, get rid of the bathwater(Stephanie Spellars) Honor tradition, don't be handicapped by it. Innovate in your ministry Don't be afraid to learn from those outside your tribe on growing your church or ministry. Find out who is your tribe (seth godin) Find your target audience (rick warren) People are seeking belonging, more than truth, after belonging comes believing (James Mallon) Prayer for growth Find the 1% percent who are open to your ministry (michael piazza) Make the weekend experience central, put the best that can at the forefront (michael white) Making disciples your priority and the catechumenate or similar process key to this ministry (paul hoffman) Offer people hope and something they can believe in for this life now (joel osteen) Create irresistible enviroments (Andy Stanley) Pipe organs, classical music and hymns are not the only music to connect with people. Church growth is not a bad thing(Bill Easum) Focus on Jesus in your ministry and talk about him ofter(Paul Nixon) Your messge or sermons must be life changing, preach in series(Michael White and Andy Stanley) Three essentials for congregations Worship, Study, Service Embrace diversity, the classical western is not the only valid expression Your are a church planter,if you are starting from scratch, it requires a different set of skills(mostly entreprenurials skills) Not all contemporary music is bad and it connects to people who are unchurched. Your outreach should be focused on the unchurched and dechurched, if people have a active church leave them alone. Your church cannot be buildt on issues or the church you left behind. Be visible on social ministry personally and digitally Offer the best music that you can, regardless of style, but it must be done according to the size of your congregation. Study demographics, pew studies on the unchurched. Christedom is dead, and most people know little about the church today or were connected to church growing up. Use media and technology in your worship. Gather to eat often Celebrate often what is happening in the lives of your people. Preach relevant, selfhelp, and show them how the gospel relates to daily life. The majority of these do not cost money or can be done creatively when you spend money.

Make a facebook cover

Congregational Sustainablity in the Independent/Old Catholic Community

One of the most significant issues facing the IC/OC movement is sustainability and leadership development. Most congregations in this movement shut their doors at the death or resignation of a pastor. It is essential to have strong lay and clerical leadership in a congregation. Financial sustainability is critical and that requires building a good stewardship model of raising givers to our ministries. Leadership sustainability requires building strong lay leadership,discerning and preparing people for ordained ministry. A good discipleship model will produce lay leaders and ordained leaders arising from our common baptismal call to ministry.

My thoughts on church planting

 The primary mission for all congregations is making disciples . The goal of ministries is transformed lives. Vision is the local context of the mission expressed by how you incarnate your ministry to the people you have been called to reach for the kingdom.
Strategy is the tools that you use to make your church a disciple making organism through worship, study, service, community building and evangelism. In the Independent Old Catholic environment, the Eucharist, daily office, sacraments, catechumenate, bible study are some of the instruments that we utilize . We are constantly focused on helping our people grow spiritually and in discipleship.

Some thoughts on evangelism,church planting,renewal,diversity in the OC/IC movement.

I believe that  Independent/Old Catholic congregations of all sizes can be strong missionary outposts in our local communities

I believe that our congregations can be vital and thriving communities regardless of size.  It is for this reason that I have studied congregational development, church planting and renewal.  I believe the  primary focus of our congregations should be on making disciples, not seeking folks from other churches. The unchurched and dechurched among our communities is significant. If we accept the great commission from Jesus “to makes disciples “ we can create vital communities of various sizes and demographics.  It is from the unchurched and dechurched   people in our communities who should be our primary mission field. They are often right in the neighborhood where are churches are situated.
I believe like the pastor of a Roman Catholic parish in Baltimore, we have much to learn from some of our evangelical brothers and sisters.

“Without apology and eventually without embarrassment, we became students of successful growing churches. Most all that we studied are evangelical Protestants, who have more or less cornered the market when it comes to intentional church growth across the America religious landscape. Seventy five percent of Catholics who have left the Catholic Church to become Protestants have chosen evangelical churches, so it looked like a good place to start. Clearly they have something to teach us. “Father Michael White, Author of Rebuilt.
Awakening the Faithful, Reaching the Lost, Making Church Matter

There are many resources from Episcopal/Anglican and Lutheran congregations on effective evangelism and reaching the unchurched. Many of these principles can be adapted to our sacramental context. The creation of welcoming environments for the unchurched is crucial to this evangelism. I must say in this movement some of us have been waiting for large numbers of Roman Catholics to leave their parishes and join us. That rarely happens, except in unique situations.

But there are many evangelicals and non-affiliated ex-Catholics who have not grace the doors of the Roman Catholic Church or our doors. We know that in the majority of evangelical churches, mainline Protestants and that large denomination called “Nones” consists of former Roman Catholics. So it’s possible that we could attract those folks who have left and not found another spiritual home. There are people in our community who been not been a part of any church or  a part of conservative churches who are looking for places to connect to Christ in a community.  How do we reach those people?

If we are to reach those folks, we will need to meet their spiritual needs that have been identified in research.   Strong scriptural preaching applied to daily living, liturgy with strong and good music that they can sing, Bible study that helps people connect and understand scripture and finally service to those in need in our local community, hands on service, not just charity. 

We don’t need to become fundamentalists as we do this.

We may have to find new ways to gather people for worship, study and service and it might not be on a Sunday morning, or in a traditional church building. Things have changed in our society, a lot of people works on weekends, families are often engage in youth sports and that is our competition.  In the Northwest hiking, being outdoors or brunch with friends occupy many young adults and young families. So let the Holy Spirit guide you in serving new expressions of ministry. So instead of lamenting why people have changed, we should be thinking of new ways we can connect to them.  Traditional expressions of church will remain the majority of our ministries, done well, they can draw the unchurched. Excellence in all we do is important. Father Michael White says the weekend experience is primary to our connecting to the unchurched. “The weekend experience is the number one opportunity for people in the community to connect with church.  And almost everyone who actually does come in contact with the parish does so on the weekend.  In that brief time, they will decide if it’s worth it to come back or not. If the experience is boring and bad, then they won’t”

Bishop Eugene Sutton of the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland shared this gem in a sermon to pastoral musicians about worship.

“Good worship consists of its own “three legged stool”: music, liturgy and preaching. Each leg of that stool is important, and if one of them is weak than the other two will not be able to stand for long. The truth is no matter how earnestly a church may pour itself into serving its community (which, as I said earlier, is a good thing), if the preaching is uninspiring, the liturgy is sloppy, or the music is barely listenable, then that church will shrink and eventually may have to close its doors as a worshiping community. “

These things ring true for traditional or new expressions of congregations. We do not need to throw out the baby, but we may have to change the bathwater

 Stephanie Spellers speaking about Anglican essentials and evangelism, believes that embracing diversity in the church may require us to change the bathwater without throwing out the baby.  As in the Episcopal Church ,the IC/OC movement  is majority white and middle class. That often shapes the culture of most of our congregations and ministries. Yet if we are going to do evangelism that  reaches other generations and people of diverse cultures. It requires some adaption. They  might seek what we offer and adapt it to their culture or local context. We are called by Jesus ”to make disciples of all people”  So here is what I believe are essentials in our movement as Independent/Old Catholics that we can adapt in traditional and new expressions of congregations:

 The vernacular principle, Incarnation, ancient Catholic traditions,liturgical ordo , God’s mission and Jesus. I add  to those  baptismal covenant and living, eucharistic ecclesiology, synodality, unity in diversity. If we build ministries around these essentials, they make look different in your local ministry context, but they can hold our catholicity.

Our mission and ministry would look different in Seattle and Minneapolis, have a different flavor of worship in an Anglo, African-American, Latino or Asian congregation. Our congregational outreach might focus on immigrants, homeless people, LGBT persons, women or children, our catholicity will hold together in our essentials.   Let’s look around us to see where God might be calling us to plant, renew or create diverse expressions of ministries.  

Our greatest opportunity to reach God’s people is often right in front of our eyes, our local neighborhood. Many people, who never attend your congregation, consider you their pastor.  I encourage some priests to return to the concept of neighborhood or parish ministry.   Make Jesus known to your neighbor, by getting to know your neighbors.  Our congregations must always be outward focused on reaching those who are not a part of our communities. There are so many possibilities and opportunities that God is providing us.

Now to those who think, I might be overly optimistic or idealistic, let me share these words with you today.

I know that it is hard work to build a ministry from scratch, often with your own funds.

I know that is can be overwhelming at times, strategizing about how to reach and connect to people, while working a full time job.

I know what it’s like to have people think your ministry is not legitimate, because it is small and part of a movement that is unheard by a majority of people .

I know it’s hard to put yourself out there among other clergy, who might treat you or see you as suspect, since you are not part of mainstream church.

I know what it is like to spend your free time preparing for liturgy each week, set up the church, and serve as the welcoming committee and marketing specialist. Only to have no one show up or those who do show up, come with many ideas about what you should be doing. They are not willing to help in implementing these wonderful ideas.

I’m here to say to you, if this is what you have been called to do as your primary purpose or even secondary vocation, don’t give up.  But I encourage you to get up, get on with it and stay connected to Jesus in prayer to sustain you in those difficult moments.

Have I become discouraged at times, you bet! Did I walk away at one point, yes, but the call would not walk away from me. Despite all these things, I believe that it is possible to do this ministry.

This ministry that we are called to do in the Independent/Old Catholic Movement requires prayer, planning, purpose and perseverance.  It will require that we step out of our comfort zones.  It requires that we meet people, often one on one. Get out of the office and into the coffee shops, pubs, community centers, walking your neighborhood where your church is located meeting God’s people.

I know this is the vision of evangelism that we are seeking to build in our jurisdiction, it is my hope that this may encourage others as you about your mission and ministry, let us pray for the Kingdom to come among us, as Jesus choose to come among us to change our lives and  the world.

 I believe that Independent/Old Catholic congregations of all sizes can be strong missionary outposts in our local communities.

 

 

 

 

Who that at the Well? Third Sunday

This past Sunday I preached on the text about the woman at the well, with a slight variation, that changed the story to Jesus meeting  a  LGBT person at the well. Since I don’t preach from written text, this is a recapture of what I said on Sunday.

 

John 4:5-42

Text: Who  That At The Well?

Jesus asked the Lesbian “Give me a drink” and She said, How can you ask me for a drink, your church says I’m abomination, your church says that I’m unnatural. Jesus response was “did I say that to you?  I’m the word of God, not the rules, not the book or the church.  They have words about God, but I’m the real thing. “If you knew who you really were talking too that I can give this living water”. So Jesus says let me give you living water and a living word from which you will never thirst again.

Jesus says to gay man” go get your partner and others in your life that is on the margins” Jesus said I know that you have that have not always lived a spiritual life.   You may have some regrets about relationships, past actions “The gay man said, “Jesus you know all things that I’ve done in my life”

  I would be can’t go to church to worship you” They stare at me, laugh behind back, talk about me and besides you said that I had to worship at the big mega church in Tacoma. Jesus said that time will come when you will worship me, wherever the Spirit and Truth shows up.  You will worship with all “sorts and conditions of people”

 A place that has a word for you that heals and restores and not condemn, “My house is a house of prayer for all people”   Come on in to your house.

The Transwoman said to him, "I know that the Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us." Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who is speaking to you."  I’m proclaiming to you that when you live in truth, you will be free.  I’m telling you,  if that church won’t welcome you, I have others that will welcome you.

The transman went back to the community and said “I met this man who told me everything I had done” He said he loved who I was before and who I’m now.

 I don’t know if you hearing me today, Spirit of Christ, but somebody need to know that we got Samaritans in our life, we had such a person who came to our church last weekend. He was homeless  and mentally ill.  He was taking off his shoes and socks, but he is our Samaritan in the middle of worship. Yes his feet smelled, but guess  what he came to  worship Jesus.   He came in our midst and challenged us on who all are welcomed here. Are we ready for what other Samaritans God will bring through these doors?

There other Samaritans in Tacoma who are skeptical about  our church  or any church. They are afraid if they come to the well, they find judgment and rejection. We can’t just wait for people to come to the well.  Let’s go meet them in the coffee shops, nightclubs and streets of downtown.     If Jesus wasn’t afraid to go to places that others thought he shouldn’t be seen in or with people that he shouldn’t be caught talking to them. We can’t be  either. We need  to go to  the Samaritans, straight, homeless, addicted, poor, rich and middle class Samaritans.  Undocumented and Queer Samaritans. Thanks to Father Shannon Kearns and Brian Murphy for helping me to embrace the word Queer.  There are so many Samaritans ,  I can’t name them all today, but let’s keep looking for them.

We have a Jesus who was willing to cross boundaries of his culture, so must we.  We have a Jesus who said that he will them give water from which they will never thirst, then we must be a people who having been baptized in the living waters, must ensure that all of God’s children know this good news and share the living water with others.

Who that at well?  A homeless man with smelly feet.  Who that at the well? Somebody needing to know “Jesus and Justice”.  Who that at the well?  A child of God! You don’t have to thirst or hunger, Let Jesus fill you.

Finally as your pastor, if Jesus didn’t say it to you, don’t be listening to those other folks, who know everything, but not love in their hearts. You are welcome at the well!

 

 

Be Free Like Me

 

 

 

 

Earlier today on Facebook I put up a video up of a woman singing two songs, The Lord is Blessing Me Right Now and Give Us This Day.   I returned to the second song multiple times today. What keeps drawing me back to it, is this verse.

 "To go from here

 And share this love

 You gave to me

 To show someone who's lost

 And help them find their way,

 The way to truth and faith

 So they can be free

 Be free like me

 Be free like me"

Her melodic voice on the last line, moved me to tears today.  They were tears of gratitude that I’m free. I thought of the day I decided to come out for good, it was a weight lifted off me, no more hiding, no being afraid that my family  would not find out from someone else No more worries about staying in a church that said I was intrinsically disordered.  At Tuesday evening community night mass at College Seminary, when the  priest read the gospel for that evening  with the verse "You shall know the truth and it shall set you free"   I  knew I had  been freed, no turning back for me.

 I have family, friends, job and church I love and been blessed by all along the journey by many people. I’m out and open and free to be in all of dimensions of life.  The reason I engage in a ministry in addition to my full time job, it has been my calling to help other LGBT people to live in truth and freedom.

For the last 21 years I have tried to be a liberating minister /witness for my community, because too many LGBT people can't believe that God loves them, which often leads to believing they can't receive love from others. Fail love themselves or believe they deserve a loving relationship. I want them to know that “God Is Love”, since she is all knowing ,is not surprised by who they are, but he is waiting for them to recognize who are in God. A valued creation of a empowering God.

  I know that I'm free! So many can't be free in Uganda, Iran, Nigeria, Russia, other countries and even in the United States. I will not give up on this fight for equality and human rights for LGBT people around the world. I look forward to the day when they can sit in their home and cry tears of joy as they listen to the words of this song. Knowing they can be free!  Until then and beyond I will keep building a progressive church in Tacoma.  A  faith community of LGBT people and our allies who seek "Jesus and Justice" in freedom.

 

Don't argue scripture

My father told me to never engage in arguments about the bible. When people are trying to prove you wrong or attack you or think they are trying to save you. Let me be clear my nerves are about bit raw this week. I have seen that life is to short to engage in silliness with people. Over the last few months some folks from my past have been trying to engage me on the  sinfulness of homosexuality. So let be me clear,  I know how to read, so  you are not introducing me to scripture that I have not read or heard before. After nearly 40 years being openly gay, I don't need you to be concern for me, be concern for yourself. Be concerned for unnecessary wars, be concern for starving people, be concern for the violence in your community, be concern that you have healthy marriage or partnership. Do not spend your time concern about who love. I'm not lacking in friends where I live in real time and on Facebook. So delete/block is always an option you have, if you don't like what I have say on Facebook or agree with how I live. I use the option quite often. Now as Iyanla Vanzant, "Go be a blessing in some one else's life"

Blooming Congregational Seeds!

One of my deepest passions is seeing congregations thrive in serving God and God’s people.  For the last six years, I’ve studied congregational development and church planting, having read some of the leading thinkers and attending workshops and institutes on church planting and renewal.  I love the analogy of blooming congregations from gardens that contain both flowers and vegetables.   For a garden to grow it must first have seeds planted, the same for congregations new or existing.  I believe that our congregations are gardens from which the seeds of worship, formation and service allow people to bloom in their spiritual walk with Christ!

 Congregations are the mission centers or garden from which all other ministries bloom. Over the last six years I’ve pastored an existing congregation and planted 2 congregations, one that did not bloom and the current one that is blooming.

I’ve spent my time thinking about how these principles would apply in the context of an independent sacramental and liturgical community.

Here’s what I know Sunday worship alone will not sustain a community, we need to grow our communities from three seeds regardless of the size of our congregations. Those seeds are Worship, Formation, and Service centered in Christ and lived out in community as a called out missionary people.

 

One of the impacts of being a missionary people for those who are in the Independent Sacramental Movement is that we cannot plant a congregation on what we are against or what we have left behind. There must be a connection to the greater (Missio Dei) Mission of God that we are seeking to plant in our communities.  Because we are radically inclusive communities we are not debating inclusion, we are living, praying, serving and witnessing to the kin-dom of God.

 The independent sacramental movement(ISM), needs to explore, vision, mission, demographics, ministry strategies, social media.  We need to bring the church outside the building and make our presence known in the community in person and through social media.  Even though we are not part of the  mainline denominations, a lot of our communities suffering from the same issues that they are facing in evangelism and thriving beyond the current generation.

One other unique thing about the ISM movement, we have to be church planters and missionaries, if we expect to thrive.  You cannot plant a congregation from your living room and hanging up a sign that you are open. You will need the skills of being an entrepreneur, creative, and visionary person that can build relationships with people and connect your congregation to your community (local context).   Missionaries go where the people they are trying to reach, not waiting for them to show up. Missionaries study the context that they see, instead of imposing a foreign structure on a local community.  It requires us doing things that do not fit in the box that we have grown up in our respective traditions.

Our mission field is great if we learned or exegete our local community for the unchurched and dechurched regardless of where they came from faith or no faith. Our garden should be a mix of flowers and gardens. We need to find more ways to help people belong, before they come to belie

Unchurched and dechurched folks are seeking to belong to a community, make friends and connect to spiritual practices. Belonging is the front porch for many of our ministries to begin and thrive.

 I’m willing to share what I’ve learn through workshops and retreats on building seeds of ministry in new and existing congregations in our ISM movement and independent congregations. Please follow my page  for to learn more about strategies and connect with others who are seeking to grow congregations.

 Fr David Strong

My personal experience on race and racism in my life!

I grew up in a town where race was always an issue at the surface of our life. Cairo, Illinois was a place that race showed up in ugly ways; you can read the history of its race problem in numerous books.

I want to talk about my own experience of being a black male in this country. It has started early on in my life. We had a news and music store in my home town; I used to go to this store to buy Mad Magazine, model trains magazine and Tiger Beat magazine. Oh yes while there I bought my first book on being gay in this small conservative town. (Loving Someone Gay by Donald Clark)  One Saturday, I purchased a magazine as usually and walked out of the store. As I was walking down Tenth Street, I noticed the White owner of the store following me; he followed down one block across the main street through Cairo. Finally by what was then Mark Twain Restaurant asked me if I stole the magazine from his store, I stated no. I stated that I had purchase my magazine and I don't steal.  I didn't go off him, because even at that young age, I was taught to be careful in how I respond in a situation like that with a white man. I stated from my grandmother. One of the deputy sheriff’s in our county saw this man questioning me.  He asked the store owner what was wrong. The owner stated that he believed I stole something from the store and that he couldn’t believe that I had money to buy stuff. The Deputy asked him did he see me pick up anything. Did he see me ditch anything once he left the store?  His answer was no. This Deputy stated that he knew me and that I would not steal anything. I went on my way. I never bought a thing from that store again.  

During a reading lab, Sister Ruth had us to double up and share a SRA Reading folder. My white classmate stated that my “Dad told me to never share anything with a nigger” The look of utter disgust on my face and my response, I’m not a nigger, still sits with me today

.There were always subtle and overt racism in all of my life, from having someone’s father saying why are you playing with that nigger and another classmate calling me a dumb nigger for a mistake that I made all through high school to people moving away from you on the bus or I have many an empty seat on a crowded bus.

I expected things to be different in college and in the gay community. I have been called nigger so many times in the gay community, I have lost count. At the University of Saint Thomas, I was called a porch monkey by two guys as I was coming out of the Student Union. Had a classmate to walk out of a theology class after being called names every day.  I have been followed in Dayton Hudson Department Store, where I actually worked in Minneapolis.  Yes

 I have been in mostly white/black relationships living in predominately white neighborhoods; I have felt the sense of neighbors asking do you live in the house, as I opening the door with my keys. I have had boyfriends wonder what their family reaction would be to me.  In the last relationship, I have felt deeply loved by my ex-partner’s family from Montana. His sister and other family members grew to accept and love me, even if there were not comfortable in the beginning.  I have watched his nephews and nieces grow up to be people who support racial and LGBT rights. Some of us will have to become a part of each other’s lives to break down barriers.

 

Yes in even in the great liberal Northwest race is an issue. I had a sales clerk at the Bon Marche explain to me how the Ralph Lauren clothes were expensive; I might want to check another section of the store. With cheaper items. My first nonprofit management job as Development Director with a 300,000 budget and my own office, I thought I had arrived where I would not face overt discrimination.  A sales person comes into our office for an appointment with me to sell me a radio spot... We had made the appointment, talked on the phone.  After our receptionist let him in the office, as I came to greet him, he said I’m looking for David Strong, he saw an older white man who worked for me and went straight to him. That gentleman said that was my boss, you just passed with his name on the door.

 

Despite all of the work that I have done in fighting for LGBT community here in Seattle and Tacoma, I have experienced outright disrespect or made to feel we need your black face at our events, but not necessarily your thoughts on how we are doing our work.  

This hardest thing is to hear some white gay men who are conservative and some of my conservative friends to minimize my experiences of racism as being over sensitive. But if you want to know where my sensitivity comes from, it from a history of experiencing racism in this country from people of all walks of life, including other people of color.  So no matter how valid the verdict was given in the Tayvon Martin by jury according to the instructions, my history will influence my reactions to the underlying currents of what happened that evening.

 

But here is what you must know about David Strong, I will not go away or retreat into an all-black world.  , nor will allow racism to make me a hateful person.  I will not lack gratitude for man good white people that I have met in my life, who have been an inspiration, help or friend. I will stop showing up to events where I may be the only black person there. Nor will I stay silent when people say things that are absurd about the black community. I want people to know that in my town where I lot of us grew in public housing at some point in our life are some of the most hardworking, successful and educated African-Americans who making a difference in our community. Yes the majority of us are Democrats and we are not on some dependency plantation that some black conservative leaders are trying to convince us.     It will make me cautious about my interactions. I will not stop bringing up the issues of race when I think is appropriate, and those who know me, I will virgoursly advocate for the rights of black people, women, immigrants and the LGBT Community. It not because I want to keep people tied down, but I want to be able to live free to, not have to worry about being profiled, shot or denied every equal opportunity under the law.  Not because it is about civil rights only, is a firmly based on my faith of the “equality before God of all people!

 

I will not accept a narrative that all white people are racist, no more than I would accept one that  all black people to be judged as one monolithic group. I  think God that I have wanted friends and have had from every racial, cultural background that you can in the world.  God loves people regardless of who they are, I must do the same.

My faith tells me I have to love everyone, even when they seek to do you harm, my enemies and my frienemies.  I have to believe in the goodness of most people, while the sin and evil of racism and other isms continue to exist and color my world.    `

 

I  will not live in fear, I believe that we can become a country where racism can be eliminated, but not by forgetting or revising the history or discounting the personal experiences of people who encountered life like I have  in my 51 years. I pray that my young nephews and nieces and the grand ones, will not have to experience what I did. If they do, I want them to be strong men and women who respect the legacy we have received from our parents, grandparents and great grandparents and respect themselves.  I love my country enough to disagree, argue for change and work for peace.   My ancestors died that I could be free, that I have might have to right to vote, find the best work that I can accord my education, live with dignity and self-respect, work to make my community a better place.

(I know the names of these people, who have done these acts, because I believe in redemption, they may have change since then, I pray.)